Nimble 5e versus very large dragons: The Battle of Playstyles
Creator Evan Diaz explains exactly how Nimble’s streamlined approach stands out.
Note: You can back Nimble 5e on Backerkit here.
Introduction
Hey Evan, you’ve been here before, when we talked about your project Nimble, a sort of replacement rules companion for D&D 5e that streamlined, simplified and optimized combat. What is “Nimble 5e” and how is it different from the previous Nimble?
Last year's project was a lightweight rules supplement for D&D that helped streamline combat and speed up play. This project is using the same core concepts that people loved so much, and pushes it even further by making it its own RPG—still 5e compatible, but it no longer assumes or requires and knowledge of D&D, and further overhauls more of the systems of 5e, fixing even more of the frustrations that commonly pop up with D&D. I'm especially happy with how the new classes, spells, and legendary monster systems interact with the updated rules! The adventure is still in production but I'm super excited with how it's shaping up too.
Everything has been done with an eye toward quick and easy use at the table. It's a system that is easy to run for the GM, quick to pick up for the players, yet tactically deep for the theory crafters.
I want to get into the specifics of how Nimble 5e is different from D&D 5e, but I also want to address the elephant in the room: DC20. That’s the name of a very recent, massively successful ($2 million raised, 20,000 backers) D&D 5e-adjacent game by The Dungeon Coach of YouTube. What is it that Nimble 5e can offer people that DC20 can’t?
I count Alan (the Dungeon Coach) as a friend and he's clearly put something special together, it looks like a fantastic system that people should totally buy and try out. Nimble has a very different focus and direction though. From what I've seen, DC20 takes 5e in a more granular and rules-heavy direction similar to Pathfinder 2e — there's obviously an audience for that. However, Nimble is going in the exact opposite direction. More streamlined and more focused.
I've had the Pathfinder books on my shelf for a while, and every time I pull out those tomes... for me, it's just too much.
Just making a single attack in 5e and PF2e, for instance, takes no less than 7 steps and conferring multiple times back and forth between player and GM. To be fair, if people are really on top of their game it may only take 30 seconds, but typically, you're checking character sheets, stat blocks, looking for dice, rolling the wrong ones, what modifier again? Do I add my proficiency bonus? etc. etc. Multiplying that across all players with their extra attacks and other abilities—all of a sudden you're stuck spending most of the game night waiting rather than playing. That's madness! In Nimble attacking is one single step, no conferring back-and-forth needed. Players know instantly if they hit and how much damage they do with a single damage roll.
An RPG needs enough rules to supply the framework for fun (and so there's no confusion at the table), but no more. Otherwise they start getting in the way, slowing things down and spoiling the fun. Frequently, the best rule is no rule. So Nimble's goal is "does this make the game faster to play and more fun?"
A story that I think illustrates my goal: at one point in development, I was going DEEP, coming up with a bunch of mechanics for throwing allies. Formulas and rules for different distances, for different character sizes, and strength values—but I had to stop myself and ask "would this actually make the game more FUN, or would it just end up with people stopping the game to look up the rule?" So the rules were cut.
Another key difference is the 5e compatibility. The ecosystem of 5e content is absolutely overwhelming, there are mountains of great 5e content and more constantly being made for it. People know how to play it, how to teach it, how to homebrew for it. They know when to ask for a perception check and what a 17 on it means, they know what 35 damage means, and how impressive a level 8 or 9 spell should be. It's the common language of the RPG world because, honestly, 5e is a pretty GREAT system—admittedly with more than a few frustrations. But still, why throw it all out for a new system that will introduce its own NEW difficulties and frustrations, rather than keeping the good parts and starting from there? It's a bit of a "new game console/no games for it" situation.
Taking on a brand new system... with its own lingo and cadence can be challenging for players, and especially for GMs. The learning curve cost is a big one, but more than that, sacrificing the 5e ecosystem of 3rd party publishers, and adventures for a new system is huge. The numbers for Nimble are balanced to work seamlessly across the level curve for any 5e adventure, all the great monster books, and even other supplements.
The handy GM advice in the core rules draft really struck me. This stuff is mostly in bullet points, all super practical and useful. Things like: don’t punish curiosity or bravery; be clear about danger; and a lot of guidance on how to deliver information to players but not their characters. Where did all this great GM advice come from?
Thanks! you're right, as a GM you'll end up with the sort of table that you craft, if you're constantly punishing players for their curiosity, don't be surprised when they're no longer curious, or overly suspicious. If you're not clear about danger, and the party TPKs, the fun is over and it's your fault.
Much of the advice is from my own GMing experience: making mistakes, stumbling upon great ideas, and things I wish I knew when I started; but also from watching others run games and listening to other GMs (such as like Justin Alexander's blog, The Alexandrian; and Matt Colville's Running the Game series are great places to start).
You lay out a great philosophy on magic items. Can you share with me the most important principles to keep in mind when creating a magical item for players?
Sure, hunting magical items and getting better equipment is one of the main draws of adventuring, but many of the magical items created for D&D basically amount to numerical bloat, (or required as a baseline to be able to even compete). Those kinds of items are exciting only in the brief moment they're received, but after that they're just rolled into the math and taken for granted. No interesting choices are made and they don't affect the story.
The BEST kind of magical items are ones the GM is excited to hand out. They'll be items that can help the party get INTO or OUT of trouble, move the story forward, allow space for creativity, or otherwise fulfil the fantasy and help create memorable moments. Any combat items should involve a choice, tradeoff, or impact the story in some way and not be "strictly better."
For me as the GM, the "typical" magic items are annoying to give out because they warp and complicate the already difficult to balance 5e encounters. One of the biggest flaws of D&D 5e is its bounded accuracy means combat math is often balanced on a knife's edge. Get just a bit more AC than expected and now you're nearly invincible (so there are secret unwritten rules for GMs to NOT hand out magical armor and not to permit certain combos). Fail to get your +1 or +2 weapons, or roll slightly bad stats and you're nearly useless in combat. It really puts a lot of pressure on the GM to not only hand out the right magic items at the right times (and not the wrong ones), but also have combat encounter balance really dialed in. Or else someone is getting trounced.
Nimble eliminates all of that and is much more forgiving to the GM, easier to balance—beforehand, or even on the fly.
In Nimble 5e, characters get new stuff EVERY level, as opposed to every three levels or so. Can you describe what you get at each level, your rationale for that, and how it has been received in playtesting?
That's right, the problem in D&D is actually 2-fold. Overwhelming number of choices for many classes at first level (e.g., wizard & druid), and not enough choices for others classes at any level.
It's such a letdown in D&D to gain a level and your party mates gain cool abilities but you get nothing. Or to pick a Wizard because you like the fantasy of casting magic, just to have to slog through dozens upon dozens of cantrips and then do it again for your 1st level spells; or for Druids to sort through EVERY beast in the monster manual, only to be disappointed you can't turn into the animal you wanted.
In Nimble, at every level, the complexity and customization is layered on in a really intuitive way. And in playtesting it's gone over really well. You want players to get new abilities frequently enough that they're not bored, but not so many choices that they're overwhelmed (or feel forced to look up the "correct" choices online). Much of the design of the Nimble classes is that they are very easy to pick up, but there is a lot of subtlety and tactical depth to explore for the players that enjoy it.
Leveling up should feel like a really sweet reward, not a letdown or a chore.
Talk to me about spells. What was it about spells in D&D 5e that didn’t work for you, and what have you done with spells in Nimble 5e to make them better?
First of all, there are well over six HUNDRED spells in D&D 5e—many of which are hundreds of words long too. In all my years I’ve never read them all—probably not even half of them. I do what many people do, read 3 or 4 cantrips during character creation, get tired of that and just ask someone (or google) which ones are “the best“ and just use those. At a certain point, having more options makes the experience worse, not better. How many wizards DON’T pick Fireball (and what DMs don’t begin hating it soon afterward)? It’s far and away better than other spells at that level (or even well beyond that level) it turns other options into “traps” or, not real options.
That’s not all, the spell memorization and spell slot systems are so fiddly, convoluted, and confusing to many players that the less said about them the better. But the worst part? The "save-or-suck" spells. They're good fun—the first time. But after that, they completely break encounters and suck all the fun out of the room. If the bad guy saves or if they have legendary resistances (which, let’s be honest, they WILL), congrats, you wasted your turn and everybody’s time.
Something I've been asking myself is "what's the fantasy, and where is the fun?" I don't think the fun is in 300 spells, all slight variations of "I do X damage." or in guessing which spells to memorize, or managing/hoarding spell slots. The fun is being able to do cool, weird, creative, amazing things no other classes can do, as well as finding and setting up cool combos (and blasting bad guys with lightning and explosions!).
Instead of the esoteric spell schools of D&D (transmutation, abjuration, conjuration, etc.) Nimble has 6 evocative spell schools (fire, ice, lightning, necrotic, radiant, and wind) each with its own unique flavor, strengths/weaknesses, playstyle, and combos—and far fewer spells overall because each one is interesting and useful, across every level. A more focused spell roster means the remaining ones can shine better. Each can have more utility and flavor, and you leave more room for creativity.
What are some of your favorite spells?
It's hard to choose, but each of the schools have their own really flavorful capstone spells. The fire school is very offensively focused, so it has: DRAGONFORM, allowing the caster to turn into an actual dragon! The necrotic school is very powerful but risky, care must be taken with necrotic spells like: Creeping Death— it deals tremendous damage to a target and if it kills them they'll explode violently and deal the same amount of damage to another creature within range. This repeats until a creature survives or no other targets remain. That's a dangerous one, if you're not positioned well, it could conceivably take out a good chunk of your own party! The wind school focuses on area of effect damage and movement around the battlefield, the Ice school on protecting or controlling creatures, Lightning is fast and tricky, while Radiant can often deal damage inerrantly—cutting through armor or other effects that would mitigate damage—and is very self sacrificial, healing, protecting, and buffing allies.
I love that each spell is the best in a particular situation. It makes for interesting tactical choices.
I want to talk about the classes, since that’s where the rubber hits the road for most of the play experience.
Absolutely, I really think that's where the "juice" of this project is. A ton of work has been poured into creating classes that I'd be excited to play. In D&D there is so much mechanical overlap between many of the D&D classes, or the fantasy is so weak and muddied that I'm just not all that interested in playing many of them. So the Nimble classes are really protective of their "thing", their niche, and special fantasy. I want each one to be crystal clear—but also customizable to an individual's playstyle.
Each one is designed to "break" the rules in some unique way and really feel very different to play. Rather than having 5 very similar classes that all get "extra attack" and just make a ton of vanilla attacks each round, the martial classes are designed to shine in their own way, as with the spellcasting classes, they all have their own unique mechanics and goals in combat and how they fulfill their fantasy.
There are 11 classes based on D&D 5e classes. Take us through each one, Evan:
Berserker
Inspired by: The D&D Barbarian, but more than merely a big dumb guy with an axe, the Berserker can defy death and gets more and more dangerous the longer combat goes on and the closer to death he gets. There is a big "push your luck" mechanic built into the Berserker.
Favorite thing about them: His Savage Arsenal abilities. As you level up you can choose new abilities like MORE BLOOD! Death Blow, Into the Fray, and Whirlwind. Each of which can greatly change how the character plays.
Subclass options: You can choose between the Spirit of the Bear if you love the feeling of being an unstoppable, unkillable force. This subclass can absorb and tank damage and push through death like no other! Or you can choose the Spirit of the Wolf, and become a frenzied attacker dishing out even more tremendous amounts of damage.
Cheat: Our take on the D&D Rogue
Favorite thing about them: These guys really feel like dirty rotten scoundrels when they're fighting. They've got abilities like Low Blow, Pocket Sand!, and Cheat (where they can change the dice to whatever they like!). They want to deal 1 huge surprise attack each turn and slink away back to the shadows. They'll use their allies to help themselves, but they're not about to go around helping their allies!
Subclass options: Choose between the vicious Assassin that lets you stay hidden even after attacking (so long as you killed your target), and allows you to "Twist the Blade" dealing the maximum damage on your sneak attacks rather than rolling for damage. Or choose the more charismatic Scoundrel, the ultimate dirty fighter and sweet talker.
Commander: Our take on the D&D Fighter
Favorite thing about them: They really feel like a party leader and tactical masterminds. Buffing themselves and allies, aiding in positioning and issuing orders to Hold the Line! when an ally would drop to 0 HP, instead allowing them to continue the fight. You also get Coordinate Strike!, where you and an ally can team up to make an attack against a foe. This opens up interesting teamwork and combo options and helps keep people active even when it isn't their turn.
Subclass options: Choose between the Bulwark that is an armor master, and is very good at defending. He can deal additional damage equal to his armor with his Juggernaut ability and even grant the bonuses from his shield to nearby allies. Or the Vanguard, a forward charging party leader that can grant his allies extra actions and movement to outflank their enemies and overwhelm the bad guys.
Hunter: Our take on the D&D Ranger
Favorite thing about them: Thrill of the Hunt! The hunter's core mechanic Hunter's Mark fuels their cool special abilities. Whenever the creature they have marked dies, they get a surge of adrenaline, the Thrill of the Hunt, that fuels cool abilities you can choose from like Multishot, Hail of Arrows, Incendiary Trap, and Decoy. They have plenty of tools to escape dangerous situations and take down foes. And when YOU deal the killing blow to a creature you have marked, you get twice as many Thrill of the Hunt charges—creating very interesting tactical and story-driven moments: "Don't kill that one, he's mine!"
Subclass options: Choose from the unshakable, damage-dealing, Primal Stalker and the resourceful, hard-to-pin-down, Survivalist.
Mage
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Sorcerer and Wizard. The 2 classes are similar enough that they have been combined into one major spellcasting class. The flavor differences between the Sorcerer and Wizard are handled with character backstories and subclasses.
Favorite thing about them: They can shape spells in interesting ways: by stretching time, gaining dimensional reach, or echo casting spells. And whenever they roll initiative they gain a portion of mana back to cast spells so that they're never completely without resources.
Subclass options: These 2 subclasses are hands-down my favorite. Chaos and Order – one representing the wild Sorcerer and the other the orderly Wizard. A chaos mage can spend extra mana (or whenever they crit) to roll on the Chaos table for an additional effect, they could temporarily gain Diamondskin, or trigger an Elemental Entanglement, or the dreaded Liquefied Legs! Order Mages can spend extra mana (or whenever they would miss an attack) to choose one of 4 options on the order table. They can cast extra spells for free, demand that an enemy leave you unharmed on their next turn, or ignite an enemy on fire with your mind. BUT, if you demand control too often you might lose control and an enemy will control you during your next turn! It's a careful balancing act of how much you want to risk tring to maintain control!
Oathsworn
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Paladin
Favorite thing about them: With an Oathsworn in your party, you really FEEL much more protected. Their "My Life for my Friends" ability lets them Interpose freely, allowing themselves to be attacked instead of an ally, and their Judgment Dice ability makes them WANT to, because when they're attacked, they're able to deal more damage in return. The way the abilities and fantasy of the class interact... is beautiful, it really scratches that itch. This is the first time I've ever been interested in playing a "tank" type class!
Subclass options: Choose between the merciless Oath of Vengeance and bring the pain on any who would harm your allies, or the vigilant Oath of Refuge and become the protective shelter for your allies in times of need.
Shadowmancer
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Warlock
Favorite thing about them: Man, they feel EVIL! Not in an overly serious or "edgelord" kind of way, but in a fun, self-aware kind of way. They can summon hordes of expendable shadow minions and even customize them in cool ways (they're super easy and quick to run, but still give the feeling of commanding a mass of little minions to do your dirty work). They feel like a very risky, "push your luck" kind of class with abilities like Greedy Pact, where when you are out of mana, you can beg your patron for more power, at the risk of injuring your body as they channel more power into you than you can normally handle.
Subclass options: You can make a pact with an Ancient Red Dragon as your patron or shake hands (tentacles?) with a Great Old One from the frozen depths and gain abilities that make you start to resemble your patron!
Shepherd
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Cleric
Favorite thing about them: They get a friendly little companion that follows them wherever they go! It can attack the bad guys, heal their allies, and more. With really streamlined companion mechanics that won't drive the players or GM bananas. They fill a cool hybrid spot of melee, support, and spellcaster – and walk a cool line between light & dark with access to both Radiant and Necrotic spells.
Subclass options: Choose the path of healing light with the Shepherd of Life and become a mighty healer, or become a reaper of souls as a Shepherd of Death.
Songweaver
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Bard
Favorite thing about them: You can choose Lyrical Weaponry abilities as you level up like: "Not my beautiful face!" and "Rhapsody of the Normal" (that strips monsters of their powers and renders them "normal" for a short while) and "Song of Domination" or "A 'people' person" are such fun abilities. The look on your party's face when you summon your old pal "Stompy" to the battlefield for the first time will be priceless. I can pretty much guarantee that!
Subclass options: Choose between the Songweaver of snark that is powerful at debuffing enemies and generally causing chaos among the bad guy ranks. Or the Songweaver of Courage that is best at buffing allies, rerolling rice and keeping courage from failing in the most difficult of moments.
Stormshifter
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Druid
Favorite thing about them: I really love the solution we landed on with shapeshifting. We've got the flexibility and narrative flavor we were going for but without the needless complexity of needing to look up every beast in the monster manual. The Beast of Nightmares in particular is my favorite, a tiny little horrible creature that can deal TREMENDOUS damage, but it requires some setup and creativity to use properly.
Subclass options: The Stormshifter is a really a great hybrid class, filling in wherever needed, but for the subclasses you can specialize in melee shapeshifting forms with the Circle of Fang & Claw, and gain dire beast forms with lightning fangs and briar fur, as well as add new boons to your beast form. Like wings, a prehensile tail, keen senses, or even the ability to cast spells while shapeshifted. Or you can lean into the spellcasting side of things with the Circle of Sky & Storm, gaining access to a 3rd spell school, extra elemental abilities whenever you land a critical hit as well as spellmaster features when you spend extra mana.
Swift
Inspired by: Our take on the D&D Monk
Favorite thing about them: A contender for the top ability "I jump on his back" The swift is so fast that they can leap onto the backs of enemies and gain offensive advantages, and any enemies that miss their attacks against a swift on the back of an enemy will damage the bad guy you're on top of instead! The Swift has tons of tools to make you feel like you're a Ninja Sonic with brutal explosive fiery punches.
Subclass options: Choose between the martyr-like Way of Pain that seeks damage out and reflects it back at attackers, can survive much more punishment, and becomes more deadly the closer you are to death. Or the Way of Flame gaining abilities like exploding soul, blazing speed, and Chain Reaction (a personal favorite!).
I’m seeing a lot of creators launch their latest crowdfund campaign on Backerkit rather than Kickstarter. What inspired you to make this move?
They really seem like the place to be for TTRPG crowdfunders. Kickstarter seems to be too big to care about any individual creator's success, and more focused on other kinds of projects. The people at Backerkit I've spoken to really seem to care about your success as a creator, and have been super helpful. Backerkit's tools really seem to be much better as well, everything is just way easier to do, highly recommend them.
I may have to do a pre-order on this. Saw the Backerkit campaign advertised, but didn't go for it. This looks to get rid of a lot of the complexity that d20 brings with it.